Bondage | Kerry did not VOLUNTEER,as he likes to claim

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DominantnLA	Posted: 2004-08-26 19:58
Forum Maniac Czech Republic 2,068 Posts	Pilots from the Navy were in aerial operations throughout the war, as were Air Force Pilots. Many of these pilots were killed from AAA fire. The bases they flew out of were under constant threat, and attack. There were many P.O.W.'s from all the services, to include pilots that were shot down (John McCain was one). Yes the ground pounders took the brunt of it, but all the services lost a great deal of men. Greyone: What's also interesting is everyone acuses Bush of trying to dodge Viet Nam by joining the ANG. Flying a plane that killed pilots every year. In a unit that was rotating people to Viet Nam daily. Kerry, however, volunteered for the Navy. I'm curious. What percentage of Navel officers faced combat? What about Air Force officers? How many Navel personel spent time as a POW. Air Force officers? <smile> Who went for the safe post???

Greyone	Posted: 2004-08-26 20:01
Forum Maniac United States 2,127 Posts	Pilots from the Navy were in aerial operations throughout the war, as were Air Force Pilots. Many of these pilots were killed from AAA fire. The bases they flew out of were under constant threat, and attack. There were many P.O.W.'s from all the services, to include pilots that were shot down (John McCain was one). Yes the ground pounders took the brunt of it, but all the services lost a great deal of men. I stand smacked down. I should have made the seperating between aviators and sailors. I appologize to all Navel aviators for that slip. -- Michael Close minded, senile, old fossil. Others: "I take the road less traveled!" Me: "There's a road?"

DominantnLA	Posted: 2004-08-26 20:04
Forum Maniac Czech Republic 2,068 Posts	And dont forget the CB's, the Seals, and the Crews from the Helos's that operated from the FEBA. There were many Sailors in Country also. Greyone: Pilots from the Navy were in aerial operations throughout the war, as were Air Force Pilots. Many of these pilots were killed from AAA fire. The bases they flew out of were under constant threat, and attack. There were many P.O.W.'s from all the services, to include pilots that were shot down (John McCain was one). Yes the ground pounders took the brunt of it, but all the services lost a great deal of men. I stand smacked down. I should have made the seperating between aviators and sailors. I appologize to all Navel aviators for that slip.

CallsignArchangel	Posted: 2004-08-26 21:23
Ward Cleaver of b.com United States 2,403 Posts	Greyone: What's also interesting is everyone acuses Bush of trying to dodge Viet Nam by joining the ANG. Flying a plane that killed pilots every year. In a unit that was rotating people to Viet Nam daily. Kerry, however, volunteered for the Navy. I'm curious. What percentage of Navel officers faced combat? What about Air Force officers? How many Navel personel spent time as a POW. Air Force officers? <smile> Who went for the safe post??? -- Michael Close minded, senile, old fossil. Others: "I take the road less traveled!" Me: "There's a road?" In all fairness, the loss to USAF and USN pilots was roughly equal during Vietnam. The USAF had more personnel in country, since most naval air operations were ship based, and AF operations had to staff and supply bases on land, but the number of POW's, MIA's and KIA's for both branches were so close you'd be splitting the hairs on a gnat's ass to make it any more specific. For the record, pilots were the majority of POW's in the war. Combined losses of all pilots KIA was about 12% of the total of American personnel killed in Vietnam. -- "Minds of men, fashioned a crate of thunder, sent it high, into the blue... Hands of men, blasted the world asunder, how they lived, God only knew... Souls of men, dreaming of skies to conquer, gave us wings, ever to soar.. " from the little known later verses of the Air Force Song Edited by - CallsignArchangel on 2004-08-26 21:27:05

KinkyMN	Posted: 2004-08-26 21:39
Liberalism = Satanism United States 1,363 Posts	Amadeus: DominantnLA: I have read what Kerry has to say in regards to this. You do know that Clinton signed us to be participants to the I.C.C. right before he left office right? This was done without debate or dissent as the Congress was on one of their Holidays. Kerry did not contest it. Bush pulled the U.S. out of it. <The only good thing Bush has done IMO> As for the U.N. I have read Kerry's stance on it before the Prison Scandal and Guantanamo Bay. http://www.icc-cpi.int/ataglance.html So, what is wrong with participating in the ICC which prosecutes war genocide and crimes against humanity only when a state can not or will not do it themselves? Are you right wingers planning something that we all don't know about or do I just need to hand you your tinfoil hat? It help if one actual looks at what involved. First off putting ANY american under ICC juristiction is total insanity. Did you happen to notice they want to put Clinton and weasly clark in prison for 'war crimes' in bosnia? Digging a foxhole could be said to be a 'war crime' against the enviroment. Giving a bunch of left wing fantics juristiction over American's would be the equivilent of making Saddam the judicial authority over jews worldwide. Second if your going to quote the Geneva Conventions try knowing at least a small part of it. People not in uniform, not in a nations army are NOT accorded status under the Geneva Conventions. We could have shot every one of the little buggers, and frankly we probably should have.

Futbol	Posted: 2004-08-26 21:43
Forum Slut United States 1,828 Posts	Greyone: What's also interesting is everyone acuses Bush of trying to dodge Viet Nam by joining the ANG. Flying a plane that killed pilots every year. In a unit that was rotating people to Viet Nam daily. Kerry, however, volunteered for the Navy. I'm curious. What percentage of Navel officers faced combat? What about Air Force officers? How many Navel personel spent time as a POW. Air Force officers? <smile> Who went for the safe post??? -- Michael Close minded, senile, old fossil. Others: "I take the road less traveled!" Me: "There's a road?" Kerry enlisted in the naval RESERVES in 1966, not the navy. Isn't this a lot like enlisting in the National Guard? http://www.democrats.org/wherewasbush/fullchart.html

KinkyMN	Posted: 2004-08-26 21:43
Liberalism = Satanism United States 1,363 Posts	Let's not forget all the Navy pilots and aircrewman that manned the medi-vacs, C-130's with rocket assist, and helo resupply of troops under hot conditions. My Aircrew instructor had 2(real not the Kerry kind)purple hearts, and a bunch of other legitimate medals as a door gunner and crew chief during nam. Plus us squids have more aircraft than the air force.

CallsignArchangel	Posted: 2004-08-26 22:02
Ward Cleaver of b.com United States 2,403 Posts	KinkyMN: Plus us squids have more aircraft than the air force. quality, not quantity is the word. Besides, you'd of course need more if you keep doing dumbass things like missing the "ground". LOL -- "Minds of men, fashioned a crate of thunder, sent it high, into the blue... Hands of men, blasted the world asunder, how they lived, God only knew... Souls of men, dreaming of skies to conquer, gave us wings, ever to soar.. " from the little known later verses of the Air Force Song Edited by - CallsignArchangel on 2004-08-26 22:04:22

IWantAnArmCandyBride	Posted: 2004-08-26 22:07
Forum Regular United States 587 Posts	"When he approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris, the draft board refused and Kerry decided to enlist in the Navy." From this one paragraph and my memories of the times, he was drafted or about to be at any minute and knew it. Please anyone more acquainted with this, correct me if I am wrong. But as I remember, you were given the opportunity to finish your education, before being called up for service. Your notice to appear may have come before your graduation, which is what your student deferment was for, that kept you in school. Upon graduation though, you were fair game. Once you were called up, you had a few choices, go and do your two years in the Army, head to Canada, or enlist for a longer hitch in one of the other branches of service. Towards the end, as I remember, the only branch that would take someone who was already "drafted" was the Marines. At that time joining the Marines was considered, by those of us close to or at draft age, a "one way ticket" to VietNam. Mike had mentioned that both Naval and Air Force pilots were counted heavily in the casualty figures. I do belive though, many of the other positions in those two branches were considered "much safer" than either the Army or the Marines, hense why they ended up with the moritorium on "drafted" enlisties. Like many young men, Mr. Kerry most likely weighed his options and choose the Navy as his best bet. No one from that time would fault him for that. To say though that he "volenteered" is rather misleading. Many in this country did volenteer and the draft was not their motivation. They went as you would expect, out of a desire to serve this country. Not because they were trying to find the "safest way" to get through it all. All the Vets from VietNam deserve our gratitude, and those that truly volenteered without the local draft board running after them, deserve EVEN more of our thanks and admiration.

KinkyMN	Posted: 2004-08-26 22:08
Liberalism = Satanism United States 1,363 Posts	CallsignArchangel: KinkyMN: Plus us squids have more aircraft than the air force. quality, not quantity is the word. Besides, you'd need more if you keep doing dumbass things like missing the "ground". LOL We don't miss the ground, we just want to be sure we're on it, cripes the landing gear we go through! Its the surest way to tell if your commercial pilot was air force or Navy. The air force guy's have the gentle finesse take-offs and landings. The Navy guys kick it in the ass during take off and get at least one good thump on landing to make sure they are all the way down. The want to 'feel' the ground. They really should have given us the A-10's, I love those hogs.

CallsignArchangel	Posted: 2004-08-26 22:20
Ward Cleaver of b.com United States 2,403 Posts	KinkyMN: We don't miss the ground, we just want to be sure we're on it, cripes the landing gear we go through! Its the surest way to tell if your commercial pilot was air force or Navy. The air force guy's have the gentle finesse take-offs and landings. The Navy guys kick it in the ass during take off and get at least one good thump on landing to make sure they are all the way down. The want to 'feel' the ground. They really should have given us the A-10's, I love those hogs. Well, AF pilots don't usually try to make submarines out of aircraft either. It always broke my heart that we had to haul that useless tailhook on an F4 topside , and couldn't remove them without totally screwing up the exhaust envelope or the TWB for the bird. LOL -- "Minds of men, fashioned a crate of thunder, sent it high, into the blue... Hands of men, blasted the world asunder, how they lived, God only knew... Souls of men, dreaming of skies to conquer, gave us wings, ever to soar.. " from the little known later verses of the Air Force Song

CallsignArchangel	Posted: 2004-08-26 22:33
Ward Cleaver of b.com United States 2,403 Posts	IWantAnArmCandyBride: From this one paragraph and my memories of the times, he was drafted or about to be at any minute and knew it. Please anyone more acquainted with this, correct me if I am wrong. But as I remember, you were given the opportunity to finish your education, before being called up for service. Your notice to appear may have come before your graduation, which is what your student deferment was for, that kept you in school. Upon graduation though, you were fair game. I can only recount how I ended up where I was. When I was in my senior year of high school, you had to take an Armed Forces Aptitude Test. I was never sure if it was required or not, but one day we were all marched down to a room and it was placed in front of us. Given the scoring, I was "recruited" by the AF for AFROTC after filling out all the selective service requirements once I turned 18. When I started college, I went into AFROTC. As it turned out, once I had signed the full ROTC commitment a year later, I got my greetings from Uncle Sam. I was activated, and the deal was such that I went through basic at Lackland, came out of basic and went to OTS and flight school at the same time. After weapons school I was assigned to the 12th TFW to replace another wing that was reorganized out of existance, and sent to Vietnam. The irony of it is that when I was 19, my number in the draft was 319. I wouldn't have been likely to be drafted with that high a number for that year. -- "Minds of men, fashioned a crate of thunder, sent it high, into the blue... Hands of men, blasted the world asunder, how they lived, God only knew... Souls of men, dreaming of skies to conquer, gave us wings, ever to soar.. " from the little known later verses of the Air Force Song

IWantAnArmCandyBride	Posted: 2004-08-26 22:51
Forum Regular United States 587 Posts	CallsignArchangel.... Did you get to finish college first Mike ??? My brother in law joined the Air Force after his graduation, and it was almost exactly as I described, as I remember. He was not part of a ROTC program but did go to OTS soon after his basic, right after the Air Force figured out his orders to be a cook were incorrect. :-)

CallsignArchangel	Posted: 2004-08-26 22:54
Ward Cleaver of b.com United States 2,403 Posts	IWantAnArmCandyBride: CallsignArchangel.... Did you get to finish college first Mike ??? My brother in law joined the Air Force after his graduation, and it was almost exactly as I described, as I remember. He was not part of a ROTC program but did go to OTS soon after his basic, right after the Air Force figured out his orders to be a cook were incorrect. :-) Nope. I got yanked from college. I finished college after Vietnam while still in the AF, when I was stationed stateside. That was why I had to go through OTS. Had I finished college while in ROTC I'd have gotten the automatic comission as a butterbar. When you sign the full ROTC commitment, you essentially are a member of the armed forces reserve and you can be called up as seen fit by the branch of jurisdiction. The basic deal was that you still did your comitted six years, they would make you an officer, and you had the opportunity to complete your education at their discretion but also on their nickel while on active duty status. That's what happened to me. After my first six, I re-upped in the regulars. -- "Minds of men, fashioned a crate of thunder, sent it high, into the blue... Hands of men, blasted the world asunder, how they lived, God only knew... Souls of men, dreaming of skies to conquer, gave us wings, ever to soar.. " from the little known later verses of the Air Force Song Edited by - CallsignArchangel on 2004-08-26 23:04:48

KinkyMN	Posted: 2004-08-26 23:28
Liberalism = Satanism United States 1,363 Posts	CallsignArchangel: Well, AF pilots don't usually try to make submarines out of aircraft either. Don't forget the great "ejection seat alternative" for the A-2's for carrier take-off. Why did we get stuck with a plane that sounded like a friggin vacume cleaner btw? S-3 Viking?? Should have been S-3 WetVac. I must say I can't recall a single instructor that had been on helo's that HADN'T crashed. Ever fly on the Brit Nimrod or our old P-2's we gave to Italy? The italian subhunter aircraft instead of electronics in the nose of the aircraft they had clear plastic and a chair tilted downward.

Author

Topic

DominantnLA

Posted: 2004-08-26 19:58

Forum Maniac

Czech Republic
2,068 Posts

Pilots from the Navy were in aerial operations throughout the war, as were Air Force Pilots. Many of these pilots were killed from AAA fire. The bases they flew out of were under constant threat, and attack.

There were many P.O.W.'s from all the services, to include pilots that were shot down (John McCain was one). Yes the ground pounders took the brunt of it, but all the services lost a great deal of men.

Greyone:
What's also interesting is everyone acuses Bush of trying to dodge Viet Nam by joining the ANG. Flying a plane that killed pilots every year. In a unit that was rotating people to Viet Nam daily.

Kerry, however, volunteered for the Navy. I'm curious. What percentage of Navel officers faced combat? What about Air Force officers? How many Navel personel spent time as a POW. Air Force officers? <smile> Who went for the safe post???

Greyone

Posted: 2004-08-26 20:01

Forum Maniac

United States
2,127 Posts

I stand smacked down. I should have made the seperating between aviators and sailors. I appologize to all Navel aviators for that slip.
--
Michael
Close minded, senile, old fossil.

Others: "I take the road less traveled!"
Me: "There's a road?"

DominantnLA

Posted: 2004-08-26 20:04

Forum Maniac

Czech Republic
2,068 Posts

And dont forget the CB's, the Seals, and the Crews from the Helos's that operated from the FEBA. There were many Sailors in Country also.

Greyone:

I stand smacked down. I should have made the seperating between aviators and sailors. I appologize to all Navel aviators for that slip.

CallsignArchangel

Posted: 2004-08-26 21:23

Ward Cleaver of b.com

United States
2,403 Posts

Others: "I take the road less traveled!"
Me: "There's a road?"

In all fairness, the loss to USAF and USN pilots was roughly equal during Vietnam. The USAF had more personnel in country, since most naval air operations were ship based, and AF operations had to staff and supply bases on land, but the number of POW's, MIA's and KIA's for both branches were so close you'd be splitting the hairs on a gnat's ass to make it any more specific.

For the record, pilots were the majority of POW's in the war. Combined losses of all pilots KIA was about 12% of the total of American personnel killed in Vietnam.

--

"Minds of men, fashioned a crate of thunder, sent it high, into the blue...
Hands of men, blasted the world asunder, how they lived, God only knew...
Souls of men, dreaming of skies to conquer, gave us wings, ever to soar..
" from the little known later verses of the Air Force Song

Edited by - CallsignArchangel on 2004-08-26 21:27:05

KinkyMN

Posted: 2004-08-26 21:39

Liberalism = Satanism

United States
1,363 Posts

Amadeus:

DominantnLA:
I have read what Kerry has to say in regards to this. You do know that Clinton signed us to be participants to the I.C.C. right before he left office right? This was done without debate or dissent as the Congress was on one of their Holidays. Kerry did not contest it.

Bush pulled the U.S. out of it. <The only good thing Bush has done IMO>

As for the U.N. I have read Kerry's stance on it before the Prison Scandal and Guantanamo Bay.

http://www.icc-cpi.int/ataglance.html

So, what is wrong with participating in the ICC which prosecutes war genocide and crimes against humanity only when a state can not or will not do it themselves?

Are you right wingers planning something that we all don't know about or do I just need to hand you your tinfoil hat?

It help if one actual looks at what involved. First off putting ANY american under ICC juristiction is total insanity. Did you happen to notice they want to put Clinton and weasly clark in prison for 'war crimes' in bosnia? Digging a foxhole could be said to be a 'war crime' against the enviroment. Giving a bunch of left wing fantics juristiction over American's would be the equivilent of making Saddam the judicial authority over jews worldwide.

Second if your going to quote the Geneva Conventions try knowing at least a small part of it. People not in uniform, not in a nations army are NOT accorded status under the Geneva Conventions. We could have shot every one of the little buggers, and frankly we probably should have.

Futbol

Posted: 2004-08-26 21:43

Forum Slut

United States
1,828 Posts

Others: "I take the road less traveled!"
Me: "There's a road?"

Kerry enlisted in the naval RESERVES in 1966, not the navy. Isn't this a lot like enlisting in the National Guard?

http://www.democrats.org/wherewasbush/fullchart.html

KinkyMN

Posted: 2004-08-26 21:43

Liberalism = Satanism

United States
1,363 Posts

Let's not forget all the Navy pilots and aircrewman that manned the medi-vacs, C-130's with rocket assist, and helo resupply of troops under hot conditions. My Aircrew instructor had 2(real not the Kerry kind)purple hearts, and a bunch of other legitimate medals as a door gunner and crew chief during nam. Plus us squids have more aircraft than the air force.

CallsignArchangel

Posted: 2004-08-26 22:02

Ward Cleaver of b.com

United States
2,403 Posts

KinkyMN:
Plus us squids have more aircraft than the air force.

quality, not quantity is the word. Besides, you'd of course need more if you keep doing dumbass things like missing the "ground". LOL

Edited by - CallsignArchangel on 2004-08-26 22:04:22

IWantAnArmCandyBride

Posted: 2004-08-26 22:07

Forum Regular

United States
587 Posts

"When he approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris, the draft board refused and Kerry decided to enlist in the Navy."

From this one paragraph and my memories of the times, he was drafted or about to be at any minute and knew it.

Please anyone more acquainted with this, correct me if I am wrong. But as I remember, you were given the opportunity to finish your education, before being called up for service. Your notice to appear may have come before your graduation, which is what your student deferment was for, that kept you in school. Upon graduation though, you were fair game.

Once you were called up, you had a few choices, go and do your two years in the Army, head to Canada, or enlist for a longer hitch in one of the other branches of service. Towards the end, as I remember, the only branch that would take someone who was already "drafted" was the Marines. At that time joining the Marines was considered, by those of us close to or at draft age, a "one way ticket" to VietNam.

Mike had mentioned that both Naval and Air Force pilots were counted heavily in the casualty figures. I do belive though, many of the other positions in those two branches were considered "much safer" than either the Army or the Marines, hense why they ended up with the moritorium on "drafted" enlisties.

Like many young men, Mr. Kerry most likely weighed his options and choose the Navy as his best bet. No one from that time would fault him for that. To say though that he "volenteered" is rather misleading. Many in this country did volenteer and the draft was not their motivation. They went as you would expect, out of a desire to serve this country. Not because they were trying to find the "safest way" to get through it all. All the Vets from VietNam deserve our gratitude, and those that truly volenteered without the local draft board running after them, deserve EVEN more of our thanks and admiration.

KinkyMN

Posted: 2004-08-26 22:08

Liberalism = Satanism

United States
1,363 Posts

CallsignArchangel:

KinkyMN:
Plus us squids have more aircraft than the air force.

quality, not quantity is the word. Besides, you'd need more if you keep doing dumbass things like missing the "ground". LOL

We don't miss the ground, we just want to be sure we're on it, cripes the landing gear we go through! Its the surest way to tell if your commercial pilot was air force or Navy. The air force guy's have the gentle finesse take-offs and landings. The Navy guys kick it in the ass during take off and get at least one good thump on landing to make sure they are all the way down. The want to 'feel' the ground. They really should have given us the A-10's, I love those hogs.

CallsignArchangel

Posted: 2004-08-26 22:20

Ward Cleaver of b.com

United States
2,403 Posts

KinkyMN:

Well, AF pilots don't usually try to make submarines out of aircraft either. It always broke my heart that we had to haul that useless tailhook on an F4 topside , and couldn't remove them without totally screwing up the exhaust envelope or the TWB for the bird. LOL

CallsignArchangel

Posted: 2004-08-26 22:33

Ward Cleaver of b.com

United States
2,403 Posts

IWantAnArmCandyBride:

From this one paragraph and my memories of the times, he was drafted or about to be at any minute and knew it.

I can only recount how I ended up where I was. When I was in my senior year of high school, you had to take an Armed Forces Aptitude Test. I was never sure if it was required or not, but one day we were all marched down to a room and it was placed in front of us. Given the scoring, I was "recruited" by the AF for AFROTC after filling out all the selective service requirements once I turned 18. When I started college, I went into AFROTC. As it turned out, once I had signed the full ROTC commitment a year later, I got my greetings from Uncle Sam. I was activated, and the deal was such that I went through basic at Lackland, came out of basic and went to OTS and flight school at the same time. After weapons school I was assigned to the 12th TFW to replace another wing that was reorganized out of existance, and sent to Vietnam.

The irony of it is that when I was 19, my number in the draft was 319. I wouldn't have been likely to be drafted with that high a number for that year.

IWantAnArmCandyBride

Posted: 2004-08-26 22:51

Forum Regular

United States
587 Posts

CallsignArchangel.... Did you get to finish college first Mike ???

My brother in law joined the Air Force after his graduation, and it was almost exactly as I described, as I remember. He was not part of a ROTC program but did go to OTS soon after his basic, right after the Air Force figured out his orders to be a cook were incorrect. :-)

CallsignArchangel

Posted: 2004-08-26 22:54

Ward Cleaver of b.com

United States
2,403 Posts

IWantAnArmCandyBride:
CallsignArchangel.... Did you get to finish college first Mike ???

Nope. I got yanked from college. I finished college after Vietnam while still in the AF, when I was stationed stateside. That was why I had to go through OTS. Had I finished college while in ROTC I'd have gotten the automatic comission as a butterbar.

When you sign the full ROTC commitment, you essentially are a member of the armed forces reserve and you can be called up as seen fit by the branch of jurisdiction. The basic deal was that you still did your comitted six years, they would make you an officer, and you had the opportunity to complete your education at their discretion but also on their nickel while on active duty status. That's what happened to me.

After my first six, I re-upped in the regulars.

Edited by - CallsignArchangel on 2004-08-26 23:04:48

KinkyMN

Posted: 2004-08-26 23:28

Liberalism = Satanism

United States
1,363 Posts

CallsignArchangel:
Well, AF pilots don't usually try to make submarines out of aircraft either.

Don't forget the great "ejection seat alternative" for the A-2's for carrier take-off.

Why did we get stuck with a plane that sounded like a friggin vacume cleaner btw? S-3 Viking?? Should have been S-3 WetVac.

I must say I can't recall a single instructor that had been on helo's that HADN'T crashed.

Ever fly on the Brit Nimrod or our old P-2's we gave to Italy? The italian subhunter aircraft instead of electronics in the nose of the aircraft they had clear plastic and a chair tilted downward.

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